[GLIMS] Nature article on Landsat

Wed Jun 13 17:34:29 MDT 2018

John and Tim,

Sorry for cross posting between GLIMS and Cryolist.

My view is that if we want to kill the Landsat program all together, charging for its data is the way to do it: charge for data types that other similar systems are able to provide anyway. However, if we want a vibrant Landsat series with ever improving capabilities going into the future (as currently mandated by U.S. law, and also in the interests of the scientific community), then we should not institute a per-user fee or per-scene fee.  My reason is simply that there are other systems out there-- both commercial and other space agencies' satellites and sensors.  Landsat 8 is still a workhorse, though in many respects its capabilities are being outstripped by remote sensing progress elsewhere.  But still, with its data being free and still excellent, they are extremely widely used images.  It is also part of the legacy series going back to Landsat 1 MSS and especially later Landsats' TM.  But if a charge is applied, Landsat 8 is not the only show in town.  People will go elsewhere.  Then the user community for Landsat will be stripped down, and the justification for continued support for future Landsats will be crushed.  So even people who can afford to pay, such as mining companies, will be 'lost' to foreign and commercial Earth remote sensing systems.  So... if we want to cede everything to Europe, and increasingly other nations' space agencies, we can do that... killing off Landsat would be the surest way-- the faster, better, cheaper way to kill an excellent program. I personally am not so nationalistic about that.  If other agencies fill all the needed niches, and there is no need for Landsat going into the future, by all means-- give it away or throw it away; the world will survive without a Landsat program, and we can shut down Landsat 8 and save a few more quarters for the piggy bank.

Just in case my cynicism is too opaque-- NO, please don't charge for Landsat data! Doing so won't make money; it will just kill Landsat. I have had other contacts within GLIMS say essentially the same or similar things.

Sincerely,

Jeff Kargel

________________________________
From: Dwyer, John <dwyer at usgs.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 9:08 PM
To: jeffreyskargel at hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: Nature article on Landsat

Jeff -

Please see the following email from Tim Newman, Program Coordinator for the USGS National Land Imaging Program, to the Landsat Science Team.  Feel free to distribute to the GLIMS community.

Best,

John

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Newman, Timothy <tnewman at usgs.gov<mailto:tnewman at usgs.gov>>
Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:03 PM
Subject: Nature article on Landsat
To: "Roy, David" <David.Roy at sdstate.edu<mailto:David.Roy at sdstate.edu>>, Crystal L Schaaf <Crystal.Schaaf at umb.edu<mailto:Crystal.Schaaf at umb.edu>>, evermote at umd.edu<mailto:evermote at umd.edu>, Curtis Woodcock <Curtis at bu.edu<mailto:Curtis at bu.edu>>, "Anderson, Martha" <Martha.Anderson at ars.usda.gov<mailto:Martha.Anderson at ars.usda.gov>>, Patrick Hostert <patrick.hostert at geo.hu-berlin.de<mailto:patrick.hostert at geo.hu-berlin.de>>, "Johnson, Dave M - NASS" <dave.johnson at nass.usda.gov<mailto:dave.johnson at nass.usda.gov>>, Lymburner Leo <leo.lymburner at ga.gov.au<mailto:leo.lymburner at ga.gov.au>>, "Gao, Feng" <Feng.Gao at ars.usda.gov<mailto:Feng.Gao at ars.usda.gov>>, Mike Wulder <mwulder at nrcan.gc.ca<mailto:mwulder at nrcan.gc.ca>>, Theodore A Scambos <teds at nsidc.org<mailto:teds at nsidc.org>>, "Pahlevan, Nima (GSFC-619.0)[SCIENCE SYSTEMS AND APPLICATIONS INC]" <nima.pahlevan at nasa.gov<mailto:nima.pahlevan at nasa.gov>>, Justin Huntington <Justin.Huntington at dri.edu<mailto:Justin.Huntington at dri.edu>>, Noel Gorelick <gorelick at google.com<mailto:gorelick at google.com>>, mhansen at umd.edu<mailto:mhansen at umd.edu>, "Healey, Sean -FS" <seanhealey at fs.fed.us<mailto:seanhealey at fs.fed.us>>, "Lyapustin, Alexei I. (GSFC-6130)" <alexei.i.lyapustin at nasa.gov<mailto:alexei.i.lyapustin at nasa.gov>>, jean-francois.pekel at ec.europa.eu<mailto:jean-francois.pekel at ec.europa.eu>, Peter.STROBL at ec.europa.eu<mailto:Peter.STROBL at ec.europa.eu>, Volker Radeloff <radeloff at wisc.edu<mailto:radeloff at wisc.edu>>, Zhe Zhu <zhe.zhu at ttu.edu<mailto:zhe.zhu at ttu.edu>>, "cc: Christopher Crawford (CTR)" <christopher.crawford.ctr at usgs.gov<mailto:christopher.crawford.ctr at usgs.gov>>, "Irons, James R. (GSFC-6100)" <James.R.Irons at nasa.gov<mailto:James.R.Irons at nasa.gov>>, "Masek, Jeffrey G. (GSFC-6180)" <Jeffrey.G.Masek at nasa.gov<mailto:Jeffrey.G.Masek at nasa.gov>>, John Dwyer <dwyer at usgs.gov<mailto:dwyer at usgs.gov>>, bruce.cook at nasa.gov<mailto:bruce.cook at nasa.gov>, "Loveland, Thomas" <loveland at usgs.gov<mailto:loveland at usgs.gov>>, "Markham, Brian L. (GSFC-6180)" <brian.l.markham at nasa.gov<mailto:brian.l.markham at nasa.gov>>, Dennis Helder <dhelder at usgs.gov<mailto:dhelder at usgs.gov>>, "Newman, Timothy" <tnewman at usgs.gov<mailto:tnewman at usgs.gov>>, Dave Jarrett <david.b.jarrett at nasa.gov<mailto:david.b.jarrett at nasa.gov>>, Gregory Snyder <gsnyder at usgs.gov<mailto:gsnyder at usgs.gov>>, Brian Sauer <bsauer at usgs.gov<mailto:bsauer at usgs.gov>>, "Jenstrom, Del T. (GSFC-4290)" <del.t.jenstrom at nasa.gov<mailto:del.t.jenstrom at nasa.gov>>, Steven Covington <steven.covington-1 at nasa.gov<mailto:steven.covington-1 at nasa.gov>>, Avila Francisco -Frank- NGA-A USA CIV <Francisco.Avila at nga.mil<mailto:Francisco.Avila at nga.mil>>, "Babu, Sachidananda R. (GSFC-4070)" <sachidananda.r.babu at nasa.gov<mailto:sachidananda.r.babu at nasa.gov>>, "Gutman, Garik (HQ-DK000)" <garik.gutman at nasa.gov<mailto:garik.gutman at nasa.gov>>, Darrel Williams <Darrel.Williams at gst.com<mailto:Darrel.Williams at gst.com>>, "Douglas Daniels (CTR)" <douglas.daniels.ctr at usgs.gov<mailto:douglas.daniels.ctr at usgs.gov>>, Francis P Kelly <fkelly at usgs.gov<mailto:fkelly at usgs.gov>>, John Hahn <jhahn at usgs.gov<mailto:jhahn at usgs.gov>>, Ron Morfitt <rmorfitt at usgs.gov<mailto:rmorfitt at usgs.gov>>, kerekes at cis.rit.edu<mailto:kerekes at cis.rit.edu>, Benjamin.koetz at esa.int<mailto:Benjamin.koetz at esa.int>, Peter Doucette <pdoucette at usgs.gov<mailto:pdoucette at usgs.gov>>

All:

By now I'm sure you've had the chance to read this article from Nature - Online:

US government considers charging for popular Earth-observing data<http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-04874-y>
Nature - Online | 04/24/2018

Some background:

Over the past year, I believe I've mentioned in my program updates that the Department of the Interior has requested the USGS consider possibilities for fee recovery for Landsat data.  As you know, the subject of charging fees for Landsat data is not new.  It has come up from time to time since the free-and-open data policy was enacted in 2008.  Of course, prior to 2008, users were charged for Landsat data.  Recognizing this issue has been investigated in the past, Interior is seeking to better understand the Landsat user community's needs in terms of "willingness to pay."

As a result, Interior and USGS have requested the Landsat Advisory Group (LAG), a subcommittee to the National Geospatial Advisory Committee (NGAC), a Federal Advisory Committee sponsored by Interior under the Federal Advisory Committee Act, consider the plausibility of Landsat fee recovery.  For several years now, we've been including a LAG member's presentation in the LST meetings; the LAG includes a fair number of names you'd recognize, including Frank Avila (the LAG Chair and most recent LST meeting attendee), Bobbi Lenczowski (the LAG Vice Chair), Rebecca Moore of Google, Kass Green, and several others.

The LAG will review the results from previous publications and LAG reports, and other relevant studies, including the 2018 update to the USGS study on the "Users, Uses and Value of Landsat and Other Moderate-Resolution Satellite Imagery in the United States," and deliver a report in late 2018.  This is in some ways an update to the 2012 LAG paper "Statement on Landsat Data Use and Charges," and will explore various fee recovery options, outlining pros and cons to the Government and to the research/user/industry communities, including potential impacts on U.S. use of Copernicus data.  It will also address possible public-private partnership approaches for future missions.

The LAG reports are advisory in nature and used by Interior and USGS to inform policy.  Interior and the USGS would consider the LAG report, the perspective of stakeholders, the user community, and Administration guidance prior to formulating any changes in Landsat data policy.  The 2012 LAG paper on the value of the free-and-open Landsat data policy served to reinforce that policy at the Department level.  This paper may have the same effect.

Given the breadth of users and applications represented across the LST, I believe the LAG would very much appreciate your perspectives on this policy.  Recommend a single LST paper summarizing the Team's perspectives.

You can find the previous LAG papers at the NGAC website:   https://www.fgdc.gov/ngac

Happy to discuss further.  We will certainly include this topic at the August meetings in Boulder.

Tim
--
Timothy R. Newman
Program Coordinator
Land Remote Sensing
U.S. Geological Survey
tnewman at usgs.gov<mailto:tnewman at usgs.gov>
(703) 648-4405 (Office)
(703) 386-0115 (Cell)

--

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John L. Dwyer

Chief, Science and Applications Branch
U.S. Geological Survey
Earth Resources Observation & Science (EROS) Center
47914 252nd Street
Sioux Falls, SD  57198-9801
Voice:  +1 605 594-6060   Fax:  +1 605 594-6529
Cell:     +1 605 359-7262   Email:  dwyer at usgs.gov<mailto:dwyer at usgs.gov>
http://landsat.usgs.gov<http://ldcm.usgs.gov>
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