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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">John and Tim,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Sorry for cross posting between GLIMS and Cryolist.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">My view is that if we want to kill the Landsat program all together, charging for its data is the way to do it: charge for data types that other similar systems are able to provide anyway. However, if we want a vibrant
Landsat series with ever improving capabilities going into the future (as currently mandated by U.S. law, and also in the interests of the scientific community), then we should not institute a per-user fee or per-scene fee. My reason is simply that there
are other systems out there-- both commercial and other space agencies' satellites and sensors. Landsat 8 is still a workhorse, though in many respects its capabilities are being outstripped by remote sensing progress elsewhere. But still, with its data
being free and still excellent, they are extremely widely used images. It is also part of the legacy series going back to Landsat 1 MSS and especially later Landsats' TM. But if a charge is applied, Landsat 8 is not the only show in town. People will go
elsewhere. Then the user community for Landsat will be stripped down, and the justification for continued support for future Landsats will be crushed. So even people who can afford to pay, such as mining companies, will be 'lost' to foreign and commercial
Earth remote sensing systems. So... if we want to cede everything to Europe, and increasingly other nations' space agencies, we can do that... killing off Landsat would be the surest way-- the faster, better, cheaper way to kill an excellent program. I personally
am not so nationalistic about that. If other agencies fill all the needed niches, and there is no need for Landsat going into the future, by all means-- give it away or throw it away; the world will survive without a Landsat program, and we can shut down
Landsat 8 and save a few more quarters for the piggy bank. <span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Just in case my cynicism is too opaque-- NO, please don't charge for Landsat data! Doing so won't make money; it will just kill Landsat. </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I have had
other contacts within GLIMS say essentially the same or similar things. </span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Sincerely,</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jeff Kargel</span></p>
<br>
<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Dwyer, John <dwyer@usgs.gov><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 13, 2018 9:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> jeffreyskargel@hotmail.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: Nature article on Landsat</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Jeff -
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please see the following email from Tim Newman, Program Coordinator for the USGS National Land Imaging Program, to the Landsat Science Team. Feel free to distribute to the GLIMS community.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class="x_gmail_sendername">Newman, Timothy</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tnewman@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk738158" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">tnewman@usgs.gov</a>></span><br>
Date: Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:03 PM<br>
Subject: Nature article on Landsat<br>
To: "Roy, David" <<a href="mailto:David.Roy@sdstate.edu" id="LPlnk563925" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">David.Roy@sdstate.edu</a>>, Crystal L Schaaf <<a href="mailto:Crystal.Schaaf@umb.edu" id="LPlnk697099" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Crystal.Schaaf@umb.edu</a>>,
<a href="mailto:evermote@umd.edu" id="LPlnk746424" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
evermote@umd.edu</a>, Curtis Woodcock <<a href="mailto:Curtis@bu.edu" id="LPlnk788817" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Curtis@bu.edu</a>>, "Anderson, Martha" <<a href="mailto:Martha.Anderson@ars.usda.gov" id="LPlnk256968" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Martha.Anderson@ars.usda.gov</a>>,
Patrick Hostert <<a href="mailto:patrick.hostert@geo.hu-berlin.de" id="LPlnk783594" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">patrick.hostert@geo.hu-berlin.de</a>>, "Johnson, Dave M - NASS" <<a href="mailto:dave.johnson@nass.usda.gov" id="LPlnk3590" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">dave.johnson@nass.usda.gov</a>>,
Lymburner Leo <<a href="mailto:leo.lymburner@ga.gov.au" id="LPlnk342706" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">leo.lymburner@ga.gov.au</a>>, "Gao, Feng" <<a href="mailto:Feng.Gao@ars.usda.gov" id="LPlnk35717" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Feng.Gao@ars.usda.gov</a>>,
Mike Wulder <<a href="mailto:mwulder@nrcan.gc.ca" id="LPlnk54725" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">mwulder@nrcan.gc.ca</a>>, Theodore A Scambos <<a href="mailto:teds@nsidc.org" id="LPlnk950841" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">teds@nsidc.org</a>>,
"Pahlevan, Nima (GSFC-619.0)[SCIENCE SYSTEMS AND APPLICATIONS INC]" <<a href="mailto:nima.pahlevan@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk740442" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">nima.pahlevan@nasa.gov</a>>, Justin Huntington <<a href="mailto:Justin.Huntington@dri.edu" id="LPlnk815209" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Justin.Huntington@dri.edu</a>>,
Noel Gorelick <<a href="mailto:gorelick@google.com" id="LPlnk602624" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">gorelick@google.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:mhansen@umd.edu" id="LPlnk782775" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
mhansen@umd.edu</a>, "Healey, Sean -FS" <<a href="mailto:seanhealey@fs.fed.us" id="LPlnk146126" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">seanhealey@fs.fed.us</a>>, "Lyapustin, Alexei I. (GSFC-6130)" <<a href="mailto:alexei.i.lyapustin@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk941313" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">alexei.i.lyapustin@nasa.gov</a>>,
<a href="mailto:jean-francois.pekel@ec.europa.eu" id="LPlnk381845" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
jean-francois.pekel@ec.europa.eu</a>, <a href="mailto:Peter.STROBL@ec.europa.eu" id="LPlnk571367" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
Peter.STROBL@ec.europa.eu</a>, Volker Radeloff <<a href="mailto:radeloff@wisc.edu" id="LPlnk112317" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">radeloff@wisc.edu</a>>, Zhe Zhu <<a href="mailto:zhe.zhu@ttu.edu" id="LPlnk818017" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">zhe.zhu@ttu.edu</a>>,
"cc: Christopher Crawford (CTR)" <<a href="mailto:christopher.crawford.ctr@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk679075" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">christopher.crawford.ctr@usgs.gov</a>>, "Irons, James R. (GSFC-6100)" <<a href="mailto:James.R.Irons@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk940728" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">James.R.Irons@nasa.gov</a>>,
"Masek, Jeffrey G. (GSFC-6180)" <<a href="mailto:Jeffrey.G.Masek@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk886277" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Jeffrey.G.Masek@nasa.gov</a>>, John Dwyer <<a href="mailto:dwyer@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk338774" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">dwyer@usgs.gov</a>>,
<a href="mailto:bruce.cook@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk571650" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
bruce.cook@nasa.gov</a>, "Loveland, Thomas" <<a href="mailto:loveland@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk605510" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">loveland@usgs.gov</a>>, "Markham, Brian L. (GSFC-6180)" <<a href="mailto:brian.l.markham@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk748036" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">brian.l.markham@nasa.gov</a>>,
Dennis Helder <<a href="mailto:dhelder@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk487798" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">dhelder@usgs.gov</a>>, "Newman, Timothy" <<a href="mailto:tnewman@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk569132" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">tnewman@usgs.gov</a>>,
Dave Jarrett <<a href="mailto:david.b.jarrett@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk269594" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">david.b.jarrett@nasa.gov</a>>, Gregory Snyder <<a href="mailto:gsnyder@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk592789" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">gsnyder@usgs.gov</a>>,
Brian Sauer <<a href="mailto:bsauer@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk660178" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">bsauer@usgs.gov</a>>, "Jenstrom, Del T. (GSFC-4290)" <<a href="mailto:del.t.jenstrom@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk426415" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">del.t.jenstrom@nasa.gov</a>>,
Steven Covington <<a href="mailto:steven.covington-1@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk802202" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">steven.covington-1@nasa.gov</a>>, Avila Francisco -Frank- NGA-A USA CIV <<a href="mailto:Francisco.Avila@nga.mil" id="LPlnk236519" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Francisco.Avila@nga.mil</a>>,
"Babu, Sachidananda R. (GSFC-4070)" <<a href="mailto:sachidananda.r.babu@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk616433" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">sachidananda.r.babu@nasa.gov</a>>, "Gutman, Garik (HQ-DK000)" <<a href="mailto:garik.gutman@nasa.gov" id="LPlnk813098" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">garik.gutman@nasa.gov</a>>,
Darrel Williams <<a href="mailto:Darrel.Williams@gst.com" id="LPlnk712759" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">Darrel.Williams@gst.com</a>>, "Douglas Daniels (CTR)" <<a href="mailto:douglas.daniels.ctr@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk431182" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">douglas.daniels.ctr@usgs.gov</a>>,
Francis P Kelly <<a href="mailto:fkelly@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk540793" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">fkelly@usgs.gov</a>>, John Hahn <<a href="mailto:jhahn@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk611572" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">jhahn@usgs.gov</a>>, Ron
Morfitt <<a href="mailto:rmorfitt@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk181455" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">rmorfitt@usgs.gov</a>>,
<a href="mailto:kerekes@cis.rit.edu" id="LPlnk805005" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
kerekes@cis.rit.edu</a>, <a href="mailto:Benjamin.koetz@esa.int" id="LPlnk932412" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
Benjamin.koetz@esa.int</a>, Peter Doucette <<a href="mailto:pdoucette@usgs.gov" id="LPlnk473357" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">pdoucette@usgs.gov</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">All:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
By now I'm sure you've had the chance to read this article from Nature - Online: </div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<a href="http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-04874-y" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; font-size:14px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" id="LPlnk379675" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true"><span style="font-size:16px; font-weight:bold">US
government considers charging for popular Earth-observing data</span></a><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="x_m_8878077772776102888gmail-m_6012913436290491804m_-562632407837777326gmail-m_326483588323414515m_3569354603386538878m_1315526953330355265m_-3308309831574942034gmail-m_7667848741819425014nolink" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); font-style:italic; font-weight:bold">Nature
- Online</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline"> | </span><span class="x_m_8878077772776102888gmail-m_6012913436290491804m_-562632407837777326gmail-m_326483588323414515m_3569354603386538878m_1315526953330355265m_-3308309831574942034gmail-m_7667848741819425014nolink" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-size:14px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">04/24/2018</span><span> </span><br>
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<span style="font-size:12.8px">Some background: </span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12.8px">Over the past year, I believe I've mentioned in my program updates that the Department of the Interior has requested the USGS consider possibilities for fee recovery for Landsat data. As you know, the subject of charging fees
for Landsat data is not new. It has come up from time to time since the free-and-open data policy was enacted in 2008. Of course, prior to 2008, users were charged for Landsat data. Recognizing this issue has been investigated in the past, Interior is seeking
to better understand the Landsat user community's needs in terms of "willingness to pay." </span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12.8px">As a result, Interior and USGS have requested the Landsat Advisory Group (LAG), a subcommittee to the National Geospatial Advisory Committee (NGAC), a Federal Advisory Committee sponsored by Interior under the Federal Advisory
Committee Act, consider the plausibility of Landsat fee recovery. For several years now, we've been including a LAG member's presentation in the LST meetings; the LAG includes a fair number of names you'd recognize, including Frank Avila (the LAG Chair and
most recent LST meeting attendee), Bobbi Lenczowski (the LAG Vice Chair), Rebecca Moore of Google, Kass Green, and several others. </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="text-align:start; text-indent:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:12.8px">The LAG will review the results from previous publications and LAG reports, and other relevant studies, including the 2018 update to the USGS study on the "<i>Users, Uses and Value of Landsat and Other Moderate-Resolution Satellite
Imagery in the United States,</i>" and deliver a report in late 2018. </span>This is in some ways an update to the 2012 LAG paper "<i>Statement on Landsat Data Use and Charges</i>," and will explore various fee recovery options, outlining pros and cons to
the Government and to the research/user/industry communities, including potential impacts on U.S. use of Copernicus data. It will also address possible public-private partnership approaches for future missions. </div>
<div><br>
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<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:12.8px">The LAG reports are advisory in nature and used by Interior and USGS to inform policy. Interior and the USGS would consider the LAG report, the perspective of stakeholders, the user community, and Administration guidance prior
to formulating any changes in Landsat data policy. <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:small; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline">The
2012 LAG paper on the value of the free-and-open Landsat data policy served to reinforce that policy at the Department level. This paper may have the same effect.</span>
</span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(34,34,34); font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:12.8px; font-style:normal; font-weight:400; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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<span style="font-size:12.8px">Given the breadth of users and applications represented across the LST, I believe the LAG would very much appreciate your perspectives on this policy. Recommend a single LST paper summarizing the Team's perspectives. </span><br>
</div>
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You can find the previous LAG papers at the NGAC website: <a href="https://www.fgdc.gov/ngac" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" id="LPlnk162644" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">https://www.fgdc.gov/ngac</a></div>
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Happy to discuss further. We will certainly include this topic at the August meetings in Boulder. </div>
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Tim</div>
<span class="x_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br>
<div class="x_m_8878077772776102888gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><b>Timothy R. Newman</b>
<div><b>Program Coordinator</b></div>
<div><b>Land Remote Sensing </b></div>
<div><b>U.S. Geological Survey</b></div>
<div><b><font size="1"><a href="mailto:tnewman@usgs.gov" target="_blank" id="LPlnk61069" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">tnewman@usgs.gov</a></font></b><br>
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<div><b><font size="1">(703) 648-4405 (Office)</font></b></div>
<div><b><font size="1">(703) 386-0115 (Cell)</font></b></div>
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<p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:10.0px Geneva">---------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
John L. Dwyer<br>
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<p style="margin:0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font:10.0px Geneva">Chief, Science and Applications Branch<br>
U.S. Geological Survey<br>
Earth Resources Observation & Science (EROS) Center<br>
47914 252nd Street<br>
Sioux Falls, SD 57198-9801<br>
Voice: +1 605 594-6060 Fax: +1 605 594-6529<br>
Cell: +1 605 359-7262 Email: <a href="mailto:dwyer@usgs.gov" target="_blank" id="LPlnk630025" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">
dwyer@usgs.gov</a><br>
<a href="http://ldcm.usgs.gov" target="_blank" id="LPlnk884771" class="OWAAutoLink" previewremoved="true">http://landsat.usgs.gov</a><br>
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