[GLIMS] FW: Glacier Mass Balance project

Mon Aug 29 22:12:54 MDT 2011

Dear Umesh,

Thank you for your response to my glacier mass balance proposal.  Your
recently published Encyclopedia of Snow, Ice and Glaciers
is very compatible with this project.  We will purchase it if or when we get
some financial support for the project.

We used Kathmandu weather observations for the article  *Mass Balance and
Runoff of the partially debris-covered Langtang Glacier *(which can be found
on the GlacierChange.org website).  At the time (2000) it was the only
weather station with a complete daily record (1987-1997).  There may be
others now but we have not found any.  The Kathmandu station (1546 m) must
be considered an extremely low-altitude weather station compared with
Himalayan glaciers.  However, it still appears to reliably
represent meteorological  conditions in the Langtang region.  We have
found (in other areas of the world) that low-altitude weather stations often
produce more realistic mass balances using the PTAA model than do
high-altitude stations.  Based on my experiences with measuring
precipitation in mountainous areas, I am certain much of the difference is
due to the difficulty of measuring precipitation falling as snow  at
exposed, windy locations at high-altitudes.

We would like to update the Kathmandu weather records from 2008-present but
have not found a source for this data.  We would appreciate any help you
could give us on obtaining these records.  Historical daily observations of
precipitation and temperature in the vicinity of the Himalayas would also be
of interest.

Regards

Wendell

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Umesh Haritashya <ukharit at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Wendell,
>
> I have been reading all emails regarding this ambitious project on cryolist
> and glims list. I must say this is much needed and timely effort, but highly
> ambitious project in its current state. We just published Encyclopedia of
> Snow, Ice and Glaciers (
> http://www.springer.com/earth+sciences+and+geography/hydrogeology/book/978-90-481-2643-9)
> and it was tough to get good sense in terms of quantitative global mass
> balance.
>
> Based on my several years of work in Himalayan region, I can tell you that
> finding right met station will be a challenge. Some high altitude stations
> which are functional are mainly in the down valley region and not at the
> location where we would like to have. This is especially true in Himalaya,
> Pakistan and Afghanistan. Also, glaciers in this region varies dramatically
> within the east-west transect and it cannot be represented with the sample
> of 1 or 2. That being said, I also think we need to start just with 1 or 2
> glaciers.
>
> I don't want to sound negative and would like to let you know that if you
> need any help (especially in the India, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan
> region), just let me know. You can also download several Himalayan glacier
> outlines, which I have submitted in the GLIMS database in last 5 years.
>
> Umesh
>
>   On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Jeffrey Kargel <
> jeffreyskargel at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>   Dear GLIMS colleagues,
>>
>> Please consider Wendell Tangborn's project, below.  On one hand, if you
>> have spare cash, I think you could be in business with him :)  However, if
>> your situation, like mine, is not so cash-endowed, we still may be able to
>> help with the project.  We are doing tasks 1-2 or 1-3 anyway, and for a lot
>> more than 200 glaciers.  Whereas I wonder whether meteorological station
>> data from stations up to 300 km away would be sufficient for the job (in
>> some cases they would not be; others perhaps so), the basic idea sounds
>> interesting.  As a consortium, we can certainly come up with a list of 200
>> preferred glaciers that exist close to met stations and which would be
>> appropriate for this project.  You may respond directly to Wendell Tangborn
>> or indicate your interest to me.  We can set up an internet site where
>> glacier suggestions can be made and whether you are willing and able to
>> provide the area-altitude data (which presupposes that you have or will have
>> a glacier outline).  These are basic GLIMS type data anyway.
>>
>> --Jeff
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 11:15:33 -0700
>> Subject: Glacier Mass Balance project
>> From: hymet01 at gmail.com
>> To: kargel at hwr.arizona.edu
>> CC: birbal at hymet.com
>>
>>
>>
>> To:      Jeffery Kargel
>>
>> From:  Wendell Tangborn
>> Subject Glacier Mass Balance Project
>>
>> I am seeking collaborators and support for a project to calculate the mass
>> balances of a small sample (about 0.12%) of the earth’s 160,000 glaciers.
>> The purpose of this project is to determine the cause of the rapid and
>> unprecedented decline of the world’s glaciers during the past 3-5 decades.
>> It is incomprehensible that the public has not been more alarmed by the
>> shrinkage and demise of so many glaciers, some of which have been in
>> existence for a 100.000 years or more.  The recent catastrophic rate of mass
>> loss is even more ominous than their disappearance.
>>
>> The PTAA (precipitation-temperature-area-altitude) glacier mass balance
>> model that I developed will be used to accomplish the project's goals.
>> This model uses only easily available daily temperature and precipitation
>> observations at mostly low-altitude weather stations, plus the glacier’s
>> area-altitude distribution.  Both of these variables are inexpensive to
>> acquire and readily available for most of the world’s glaciers. A unique
>> feature of this model is that it relies on a memory of the past climate
>> embedded in the glacier's surface configuration to determine the current
>> mass balance.
>>
>> The PTAA model has been successfully applied to several dozen glaciers in
>> Alaska and the Pacific NW, and was also tested on one glacier in the
>> Himalayas. Several peer-reviewed scientific papers and three MS thesis that
>> are based on the PTAA model have been published. see
>>  http://glacierchange.org/blog//
>>
>> The PTAA FORTRAN program and all auxiliary programs will be turned over to
>> the organization or group that agrees to manage and support this project.
>> HyMet will be available to assist in setting up and initially running the
>> model and other programs.
>>
>> *Initial tasks
>> *
>> 1. Select approximately 200 glaciers (5-10 for each mountain range) on the
>> basis of available DEM data and proximity to long-term (50-60 years) weather
>> stations
>> 2. Tabulate area-altitude distribution from the DEM for each glacier
>> 3. Collect daily temperature and precipitation observations at 2-3 weather
>> stations for each glacier, located 300 km or less from the glacier.  There
>> will likely be some overlap so that one weather station will be tested for
>> several glaciers.
>> 4. Reconstruct missed observations of weather data using HyMet programs
>> designed for this purpose
>> 5. Revise PTAA computer program to incorporate selected glaciers, AA
>> profiles and weather data
>> *Project Goals
>> *
>> 1. Calibrate the PTAA model for each glacier to find the minimum
>> calibration error and optimum values for the mass balance coefficients
>> 2. Apply the optimum coefficients to produce daily mass balance results
>> for the period of record to determine average accumulation, ablation, mass
>> balance and runoff as a function of elevation, equilibrium line elevations,
>> daily lapse rates, historical annual balances and other variables for the
>> period of record. Tabulate and organize each variable into a file.
>> 3. Relate mass balances to global temperature anomalies of maximum and
>> minimum temperatures compiled by the Hadley Climate Center, and to the
>> changes in concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide measured at Mauna Loa
>> to determine the cause of the recent and widespread glacier decline.
>> 4. Develop a simplified, dynamic glacier model using the mass balance
>> results that demonstrates how the climate, glacier mass balance, glacier
>> surface configuration (AA profiles), glacier flow and bed erosion are
>> interrelated.
>>
>> *Estimated time and labor to complete
>> *
>> Two or three experienced people working full time could complete the
>> Initial Tasks in 10-12 months.  The tasks identified in the Project Goals
>> would also require another 10-12 months without number 4, which
>> could require another year or more.
>>
>> *Jeffery*
>> **
>> *I saw your letter to your doctor on Cryolist regarding global warming
>> skepticism and thought this project would be of interest.  There has been a
>> considerable amount of response and interest in collaboration but no offers
>> of financial support.  I plan to submit a proposal to NSF within the next
>> few weeks. *
>> **
>> *I also read your article about Himalayan glaciers.  So far 8 people who
>> have been involved in Himalayan glaciology responded to the above email and
>> I am hopeful that there will be several glaciers from that region included
>> in this study.  There may even be a way estimating debris-cover on these
>> glaciers with the PTAA model.*
>> **
>> *My colleague, Birbal Rana, is from Nepal and has worked with several
>> glacier-damned lakes that now pose a threat due to glacier retreat.*
>> **
>> *Regards*
>> **
>> *Wendell*
>>  **
>>
>>
>> Wendell Tangborn
>> HyMet
>> 13629 Burma Rd SW
>> Vashon Island, WA 98070
>> 206 567 4077
>> hymet01 at gmail.com
>> www.hymet.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Wendell Tangborn
>> HyMet
>> 13629 Burma Rd SW
>> Vashon Island, WA 98070
>> 206 567 4077
>> hymet01 at gmail.com
>> www.hymet.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GLIMS mailing list
>> GLIMS at nsidc.org
>> https://nsidc.org/mailman/listinfo/glims
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ...............................................................
> Dr. Umesh Kumar Haritashya
>
> Associate Editor ASCE' "Journal of Hydrologic Engineering"
> Editorial Advisory Board "Himalayan Geology Journal"
> Editorial Advisory Board "The Open Hydrology Journal"
>
> Department of Geology
> University of Dayton
> 300 College Park
> Dayton, OH 45469-2364
>
> Phone: 937-229-2939
> Fax: 937-229-2889
> Alternate E-mail: Umesh.Haritashya at notes.udayton.edu
>

-- 
Wendell Tangborn
HyMet
13629 Burma Rd SW
Vashon Island, WA 98070
206 567 4077
hymet01 at gmail.com
www.hymet.com
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